What do you do when your professional work is seen as NSFW by some people? You move forward and take it seriously, that’s what. Listen how Fly Media Productions uses the EOS framework to best position themselves for the “pleasure” industry. It’s truly fascinating (and not actually NSFW).
[Music] Welcome to the Solspace podcast. Thanks for listening.
Mitchell: Welcome back everybody.
You are listening to the Solspace Podcast. This is Mitchell Kimbrough, founder of Solspace. We are resolving the cliffhanger that we left you with last time.
I'm talking to Sherri and Reuben Johnson. These guys are Fly Media Productions. The cliffhanger was two things.
What was Chantelle Brown's Instagram handle? Because she is a model on the Fly Media Productions website that conveys the brand so well. And who is that person?
Sherri: That is at Chantelle Tyler B. So C-H-A-N-T-E-L-L-E-T-Y-L-E-R-B.
Mitchell: Nice. We'll put that in the show notes too. Why am I going to so much trouble to promote people?
Because that's part of the reason there's a podcast, right? I want to get people out there who are doing good work, who are focused on something and have a purpose and serve somebody in some way. So that's why I wanted to emphasize that.
The next thing, the next cliffhanger we're going to resolve from last episode two weeks ago, is the third of your core values that you got out of the EOS process. And this is unapologetic authenticity. So what the hell does that mean?
Reuben: So it's rejecting respectability politics, civility, culture, and the pressure to code switch. We'll never water down your message or your voice, even in seemingly mundane things. And then one of our slogans, tone down for what?
So essentially, we're going to help them be the best version of them without changing them. So unearthing what is that thing that is like their USP? What is their unique selling point?
And then honing in on that and help them to...
Sherri: Be loud and proud about it.
Reuben: Yeah, exactly. A lot of times they're like, oh, that thing that might be, I don't know, questionable is not the right word. But that thing that might make them feel like they're so different that maybe they're a risk, instead of trying to hide that thing or soften the edges, we go the other route and we try to elevate and put that thing out there front and center.
I think what we did with Slightly Furry and what we did with Cindy Gallop is kind of a good example of that, just accomplishing it in two different ways. And so I'll break down the... Excuse me.
I'll break down the different aspects of it. So respectability politics, I think we all know what that means. So for us, it's really about being genuine and authentic.
It's not about... I know a lot of... It says rejecting civility culture.
And I think that it can easily be taken the wrong way where people might mistakenly think, oh, they're saying, you know, be unkind, be abrasive. That's not actually what it's referring to. It's about being real and genuine, authentic, whatever that looks like for the individuals within the brand and the brand itself, because that's how people connect with other people.
Like I know that you're definitely a believer in vulnerability. People, you can't be vulnerable without being authentic and vice versa. And that's what people connect to.
So I think one of the challenges with like respectability politics and civility culture is it takes some of that vulnerability away because it puts like a layer of like, what is that stuff called? Plastic wrap, where you're kind of like, you're not being your full, true, genuine self as either a professional or an organization or a product. So we're trying to say, let's come at this from a different perspective.
And I know that's been kind of like the way that historically a lot of things have been done. And we're saying, let's do things differently, especially in this modern era. Consumers really connect with real.
They really connect with authentic and not authentic as the buzzword, which we all hear everywhere and everyone has grown tired of, but real, genuine, authentic. And everyone can be authentic because everyone is a unique human being and every brand is run by unique human beings and has a unique core values of its own. You just got to help surface that and then communicate it in a way that resonates with whomever the target intended audience is.
Mitchell: This one of the gifts that the Internet has given us is that you can find your people.
Reuben: Yes, absolutely.
Mitchell: And your people don't have to be more than just a handful of those people. And they were impossible to find back when, you know, back, I guess, even in my twenties, we weren't really that far along with what the Internet has become. But you can find your people now.
And here's something that I find really interesting and that kind of touches on our topic. You have to find your people. You don't have a choice anymore.
Remember back in olden times when you could throw a stick and get a client to do web development. Like it was just so easy that there were so few of us and so many of them needing this kind of work done. That's over now.
You know, Squarespace and Shopify ate all that up. That's gone. Wix, it's toast.
Now we have to work like any other business to find our people. But there's two sides to that coin, like you have to and you want to. So I interrupted you.
You were unpacking that core value, but you touched on something that is meaningful to me that we have. It's so easy to find your people now or it's possible, at least, which I think is striking about how humanity is changing with how the Internet's coming up.
Sherri: Oh, I was going to say to what you were saying to the Internet has made it so that we have so many sources or resources to finding our people. But the people have to show up in a way that we can find them, because if they try to be like everybody else, we're not going to find them.
Mitchell: That's right. There's so many options and it's so crowded that you have to make a courageous leap like the two of you have done with your brand. And you're at the vanguard because you're saying, look, to your clients, we can do this.
We can make this leap. And now we got you. We did it.
And now you can make that leap with your brand. It's OK to be you. It's all right to go out and be what you're trying to be.
You can fully be it because you got us right. And we can help you get there. So these are the powers of the core value system in EOS, like it lets you fully be you and find your people.
And it helps you exclude the people who are not a good use of your time. And you're going to waste their time. They're going to waste your time.
They need to find somebody else to find some other agency. Right. So unapologetic authenticity doesn't mean you're a jerk, but it also doesn't mean that you hold back a thing you think you ought to say.
Reuben: Exactly. You've got to be powerful and bold and vocal. You just got to do it the right way. I love the way you say that.
Sherri: And show up fully as yourself. That's probably the main thing.
Reuben: Yeah.
Mitchell: So how much of this is maturity? So I'm much more fully myself at age 50 than at age 20.
I was more inclined to apologize at 20 than I am at 50 because IDGF anymore. You know what I'm saying? I just don't care.
Like, I don't care. I know I'm not going to be huge and I'm not going to be little. I'm what I am.
It's too late. It's over now. So anybody wants to come along, let's do this.
Otherwise, get on a different train. So, but what does that part mean? Like, how do you it feels like it's a muscle, like you have to work it and you have to mature into it.
But what if a brand comes to you and it's a brand new business? How are they supposed to come with that maturity? Like, how do they resolve that conflict?
Reuben: I love that question. It's funny because that goes to something that we were talking about while we were working with Leslie a while back. He's like, y'all should really point out that you help mature and mature brands.
That's something we had a lot of experience with in the past, helping folks new to business. And a lot of that is about developing trust, really with the leadership more than anything else. And I think that's something that takes a lot of that takes experience over time to understand how to build that trust with the leadership.
But I think for for any organization, any type of repositioning or rethinking around a brand, take you're going to hit that point where it tests your courage. So we worked one time with an organization that wanted to be rebranded and they were in they were in health care. I won't say who the client is, but they were in health care and they wanted to work on a reposition.
That was very, very different than anyone else in health care. Now it came out really, really great. It was the the leadership had this idea.
It was a really novel idea. We ran with it. It came out spectacular.
But about three quarters of the way through is a point when we hit the pain with the leadership where it tested their resolve, because it was their idea. We were executing on that idea for them. And we worked with them to develop the strategy, yada, yada, yada.
But when they started seeing things come to fruition, that's when they started. It hit them, it challenged them. Are we really that courageous?
Like, this is our idea. We've been wanting this. This is the fourth agency we've hired.
And the other three agencies weren't able to visualize what we wanted. This agency could. But now that we're seeing it for real, we're scared because we're so different.
Sherri: We all want to be the red umbrella in the sea of black umbrellas. But then nobody also wants to be the red umbrella.
Reuben: Yeah, exactly. Once you become the red umbrella, it's scary.
Sherri: You know, it's important. So you want it. But then you were scared to be it because then like you get so much new attention in a different way.
It's scary.
Reuben: And then to their credit too, they ran with it and it worked out well. But it took us understanding on our side that that was going to happen. We knew it was going to happen.
We warned them about it when we started early on in the process that at a certain point, you're going to get scared and that's fine. We're going to work through it with you. But it's going to happen because this is very different.
It's very different for your market and all that kind of good stuff. And I think that's just with any, especially like to go back to answer your question with new clients, with clients who are new to business or they're starting a new business in a new vertical or something like that. It's absolutely going to happen.
But I think it's going to happen. It can happen with any seasoned business if they're doing something drastically. If it's a drastic departure of where they were from, then it's going to test them at some point.
Sherri: Yeah, I agree.
Mitchell: We often riff on the idea at Solspace that we're the guide and our client's the hero. I like that. And it's this paradigm that you see for eons and in storytelling and literature and myth and everything.
There's a guide and there's a hero. And the hero doesn't know where the guide kind of does, knows better than the hero. And the guide can see the future better than the hero can see the future.
And when we ask our clients to make a leap, like we're doing a lot of stuff where manufacturing companies are starting to move sales online and they sell really complicated stuff, like really complicated, configurable, multiple permutation, like robots for crying out loud, right? Selling robots on a website, industrial robots. What?
So we're asking them to take a leap. Because of our experience with other clients and other industries and other engagements, we think it's relatively safe for you to make this move or whatever we're advising them to do. It's still scary.
We have the refined muscle. We have the flexible, strong muscle to say, it can be done. We can guide you to this place.
It looks like this. When we start predicting the future and those predictions turn out right, and we can say, you're going to step on that stone over there, and then that one's wobbly, and that one's slippery. And next thing you know, you're across the river.
That sense of guidance is one way to get them to the other side of this. So that's a really interesting part of your work. It's even more pronounced in what you do than what we do, because the kind of risk I ask my clients to take is not as big as what you're asking your clients to take or what they're trying to come and take when they hire you.
So unapologetic authenticity. All right. That was a good tangent.
What's the next core value we can talk about?
Reuben: So I think our last one, I think we're on the last one. No, the second to last. The second last.
So cultural relevance? Yeah. Okay.
So I'm going to read what we have because I really like the language we have here. Innovation moves at the speed of culture. Proudly Black and LGBTQ led, Fly Media Productions lives at the intersection of commerce and urban culture.
Our cultural fluency is a bridge. So I like the language a lot because I think...
Mitchell: I do too.
Reuben: Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate that.
Mitchell: Yeah, I like that.
Reuben: I love, like, it makes me think about a book I read. This has got to be, I don't know, 15 years ago by an ad agency exec for an agency called Translation. And one of the things that they were doing, they serve the music industry, they serve a lot of entertainment driven stuff, but a lot of what they were doing was translating the language and the objectives of the enterprise client into campaigns and strategy so that they can directly...
It resonates with the core audience and then it helps them to reach those outcomes that they're looking for. But it's not like a one-to-one. It's like you need that translator there who's going to help you, who understands as the business, they understand your objectives.
They understand and you've set milestones with them. They've developed a strategy with you. They understand both languages and then they're going to be able to say, okay, we understand you enterprise or we understand you small business.
And they're over here on the consumer side. We understand y'all and everything that you value and what you're looking for. We're going to bring you together and we're going to help you to see the common interest in both of these things and how y'all can have this win-win relationship and how it benefits you both.
And these are the areas that benefit you and we're going to help you that make that connection work. And that's why I like the idea of brands so much because it's about creating opportunity. What the business does with that opportunity, whether they're able to take advantage of it and make sales or whatever, that's an internal thing.
Our job is to make sure that we develop whatever this brand experience we're doing with them is, we develop it in such a way that it creates additional opportunities for them. How they benefit from those opportunities down the line, that's entirely up to the capabilities of their team.
Mitchell: There's a productive tension in your core values and mine too. One of our core values is excellence. So we want clients who want us to deliver excellent solutions to the problems.
And I want people on the team who want to do excellent work. But a core value that keeps that one in check is also wholesome. So we have this idea that we want our clients and ourselves and our relationships with these clients to be wholesome.
We want to act in a wholesome way, meaning we want to do things that are sustainable for a long term, that make one another better. These two things keep one another in check. This second to last core value you were talking about can be a problem if it's not kept in check by your first core value, which is we're not going to exploit, we're not going to take advantage, we're not going to let you appropriate our language and our ability and our understanding of this market or this special kind of demographic or a certain language to your own advantage.
It's going to have to fit with this larger paradigm. So that's one of the nice, nice is not really the right kind of language for it. It's a really powerful sort of combination where these things balance each other out.
Have you guys thought about that? It just now occurred to me that these core values do that.
Reuben: Yes. And I so love that you saw that so clearly, because that's really important to us. We care about both sides of, I don't want to call it a transaction.
Sometimes it's a transaction, sometimes it's not. But we care about both sides of the relationship. Both entities, the people on both sides matter.
And excuse me, it can't be like a win-lose or an exploiter exploited. It's got to be mutually beneficial or I don't see us wanting to be involved.
Mitchell: Well, you can't check a box. That's my concern. You know, like I'm thinking about a number of different types of businesses who would come in for that core value we just described and say, well, yeah, OK, we can check this box and we can go back to whatever we're doing where we're ignoring this larger problem that deserves attention.
What's the last core value in your list?
Reuben: I've got to address that. I love that you brought that up. We actually have that on our website.
If you scroll all the way to the bottom, we have a section that says, are we the best partner for you? And then under the side, it says not so much if it says not so much if you're willing to write a fat ass check to get your brand out of a public perception crisis, but unwilling to invest in long term systemic improvement. So I love that you said that like, oh, you covered all the bases.
I'm like, this is kismet.
Mitchell: Yeah.
Reuben: OK.
Mitchell: Do you want the shortcut or do you want to really get to the destination? Exactly. Right.
Do you want to do it fast or do you want to do it right?
Reuben: Oh, I love that. The faster, right. And it's going to benefit them to do it right.
It always will. It'll benefit the entire their entire team, their leadership, their brand, all of it. Like there's no real there's no downside on that end.
I mean, it requires effort and requires an investment of resources, an allocation of of resources or other things. But there's no real downside, so to speak. I guess I'll jump to our last one because I know I kind of went.
Sherri: So the last one is sex and body positive. So we are unapologetic in our belief that sexual pleasure is a human right and that all bodies are good bodies, and we fully embrace empowered expressions of sensuality and sex appeal.
Reuben: I love that one, too. I think that one's when you go with the mic. OK, when you take that one and then go to the representation one, it makes me think of the models that we worked with.
We have some disabled models that we worked with. What were their names? Karnesha and Chantelle.
And when you look at their imagery and their brands as models and disabled activists, I feel like that right there is a perfect example, because a lot of times people want to like desexualize. And obviously, if someone's not interested in sex, that's never a problem. Like there's there's plenty of folks for whatever reason have no interest in sexuality or sex or what have you.
And they should never be knocked against. That's like not a bad thing whatsoever. It's just everybody is different.
And we absolutely celebrate that as well. But to go back to what I was saying, like, I think that last core value goes really well because it ties all the other stuff into it. When we talk about sex appeal and we talk about representation and we talk about being unapologetic, when you see the choice of imagery we choose to bring in to represent our brand, we want to do it in a way so that all of those things are visible.
And I think Chantelle, Karnesha, RIP Bambi, who is our illustrator, I think they really represent it well, because it's like you've got a disabled person who we're not desexualizing, who we're also celebrating as being disabled, but also she's not an Olympic athlete. I'm always amazed at the disabled athletes at the Olympics who are the disabled wheelchair playing basketball and all these things, like skateboarding. I guess it's not skateboarding, but half pipe and skate park on a wheelchair.
It's amazing feats of human athleticism, but not every disabled person in a wheelchair is in a position where they can do that kind of thing. So it's like I think it's great to elevate that side, but I also think it's really important that we elevate the other experience that a ton of disabled people also have, and then bring in the fact that sexuality matters. Bring in the fact that their cultural representation matters.
We're not trying to strip away their humanity, just their disability or in their life experience is part of who they are, and here's the way that that can fit within your brand. Here's the way that story works with the story of your upcoming campaign. This stuff weaves together, and this is why the market will care, because when the consumers see that, guess what, that story resonates deeply with them, because they see some of their story within that story.
And the fact that you're elevating them as a client, now you're developing a type of loyalty that is really hard to earn, and it's hard to get someone else to be able to pull them away, so you're going to have less issues with attrition and that kind of stuff.
Sherri: I was going to say too, I think in where we're at with our businesses, while there's so much new branding in this space that is removing bodies altogether from the visual storytelling aspect, which is fine, it definitely makes it easier and more inclusive. It makes inclusion very easy, but it doesn't account for representation, and we kind of take the stance that you can do both. It is possible to do both.
It's hard work, but it is possible, and it's what we're really good at, and so that's kind of where the sex and body positive and the empowered expressions of sensuality and sex appeal, that's what our brand is. Our brand exudes that, and we want to work with brands that want to exude that too, and we bring in the inclusivity and the representation through use of visuals. It's part of the storytelling that we do.
Reuben: I think one of the things we've done a lot of focus on too, to go with what you said, is also exuding it in different ways for different brands too, to let them feel what their brand should feel like. When you tap into brand seduction, it looks different with every brand, the way we tap into it as well. Yes.
Mitchell: Pleasure versus sex. Is pleasure in your brand for your own business, is it bigger than sex? Is that a component?
How do those things work together? When I'm thinking of your brand, I'm thinking, there's a bunch of businesses in my town that would be perfect clients, and I didn't know it until I saw your branding and the courageous moves you guys made and see how they're a fit. But there's some other businesses too, like there are some boutique chocolate companies.
Is that pleasure? Does it have to be sex? Do they have to go together?
What's the relationship there? What do you guys find going on with that conflict?
Reuben: Well, I love that question, the decadence of chocolate. Yeah, depending on whom the chocolate brand is, they may be a fit. It really depends on, does decadence speak to that brand or does it not?
And to answer the earlier part of your question, sex to us is part of pleasure. Pleasure is like the overarching umbrella, sex is within that. These are a lot of different things that come with being a pleasure brand.
Sherri: Yeah, just sexual pleasure is more what we're referencing.
Reuben: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, thank you.
Yeah. Thank you. I should have clarified that.
Mitchell: So we made it all through the core values. Yes. And like I said in the other episode, nobody is ever going to have these same core values.
Nobody. Nobody's going to have mine, and nobody's going to have Focus Labs core values. They're utterly unique, but they still work in the marketplace.
Like there's still a need for that. There's still a fit out there. So what kinds of businesses, what kinds of clients do you serve?
Like what are some examples? And the other thing is I have the most impossible time with examples because we're under NDA so often. Like we're not allowed to talk about the people we serve because the thing we do is core to the business now.
Like we're burrowing further and further into these businesses like, oh, you can't talk about what you do because you're the competitive advantage. So keep your mouth shut. Can you guys talk about some of it?
Reuben: Yes, we can absolutely talk about. So that's a good question. I mean, ideally, we prefer to stay within sexual pleasure.
So like apparel, entertainment, accessories, toys, accessories, things that are within that realm of pleasure. That's like our sweet spot where we would prefer to stay in. But we do bridge outside.
So for example, we were tapped to help with a virtual event for a rare disease foundation because they were doing something for Valentine's Day and self-love. And they wanted it to kind of like tap into the idea of self-love. And they thought we'd be a perfect team to help with that because it's kind of like bridging.
They have a community of folks who have a lot of health problems. They got a great expert who's going to do a presentation. But they want to bring this in holistically so that folks kind of like they get that vibe, that kind of like Valentine's adjacent vibe.
And it went really well. Now, on the surface, you wouldn't think that's necessarily pleasure. Now, we won't necessarily work with them on all their other stuff.
But they are doing series around like relationships and sexuality when it comes to navigating chronic illness and all that kind of stuff. That's right up our sweet spot. So we could certainly work with that all day long.
The other stuff is more straightforward where, okay, you want to work with us because you're selling like premium toys and you want to make sure that you have a positioning of we're super eco-friendly and all of our stuff is XYZ. Yes, we can absolutely help you with that. Or, you know, I create ethical adult erotica.
I would like to work with a company that can help us create a really sophisticated experience that focuses heavily on the fact that we're ethical, we have premium quality product and service, and we're worth trusting, yada, yada, yada. That's the kind of thing we could help with as well. And then all the stuff in between.
I don't know if that answers.
Sherri: Yeah, and I was going to say too, and to speak to the chocolate thing, it depends. If they want to tap into the brand seduction side of things in that seduction language and to lure their clients, then yes, absolutely.
Reuben: Because there was a chocolate brand that used to do that back in the day. And I can't think of what it was, but just the way they showed the slow pour and everything. It's like this sexy chocolate kind of dripping into the chocolate pan or whatever you call it.
I would love a campaign to work on something like that with them. Yeah, like you said.
Mitchell: Do you guys think in terms of campaigns? I mean, I'm sure you do. And do you think in terms of long-term clients?
Yeah, I'm sure you do. Where do you land on that? Because I can imagine a bunch of brands, like we're just toying with the idea of chocolate makers and how they might have a campaign to emphasize for a quarter or for a year, the decadence of their product.
And then next year, they might want to talk about how it's all sustainably sourced and talk about the farms and talk about the insects and talk about the pollination, all that kind of very different from seduction. So do you go hard in the paint on campaigns or do you go and are you a long-term partner to brands? How's that relationship shake out?
What's the balance?
Reuben: I think that the example you gave is really good because we could help them with the decadence campaign. But then after when they want to focus on the sustainability and the eco-friendliness, what they would do at that point is we're going to switch up roles and be more of a consultative role where we're going to just give some guidance and direction to their new creative team on how not to lose a lot of the groundwork that we've done. But we're not going to have, we'll take a back seat as a partner helping them to make sure that they don't lose ground and then they'll run in whatever direction they run in.
That's the thing I really love about what we're doing is it gives us the opportunity to be heavily involved on developing something from scratch to execution or consultation and strategy and then handing off to another creative team. Because even when it comes to, for instance, if we did something for a sex toy brand and they want to do a full redesign of the e-commerce experience and how the brand is positioned there and they want to migrate and change the underlying technology stack, what we would do in that example is we're going to work directly with them and then we're going to also work with them in pulling in, if they don't have internal tech capabilities, we're going to work with them on selecting the appropriate vendor because we're not going to be looking to manage tech on our end. So that's where we connect them to Solspace and say, okay.
Mitchell: That's right. You're going to kick in Solspace.
Reuben: Exactly. Solspace has got you on the tech. They are the best of class doing the tech side.
We're going to work with you on translating all this great creative, all this brand, all this communication stuff over to them so that when it's executed into tech and then published, migrated over to production, everything is a seamless, easy process. And at the end, you get what you were expecting and what we promised you on day one. And I love that because we can stay specialist in our little sweet spot and then we can connect them with people who are the best of class in the areas where we're not looking to be best in the world.
I forget who wrote the book, which book it is. It's a hedgehog concept, but we're not looking to be best in the world at dev. Let's get Solspace in there because this is your sweet spot and we don't have to be.
Mitchell: Yeah. Jim Collins, Good to Great.
Reuben: Thank you. Yes. Yes.
Mitchell: I think this is a good stopping point. All of my podcast guests are so awesome because we could just talk for another three or four days straight.
Let's do some of the fundamentals. How do people find you? Where are you online?
Reuben: Do you want to do it?
Sherri: Sure. You can find us at flymediaproductions.com. And on the socials, you can find us.
Well, flymediaproductions is on LinkedIn. And then xoflyduo, you can find Reuben and I pretty much everywhere. And also check out sextechnchill because that's also another brand of ours that we're working on Instagram.
Mitchell: You said you're Atlanta Metro, but you take care of the whole country. What's your region or do you have one? Do you care?
Reuben: We don't 100% care. I mean, we'll service all of the US and we've got some clients we've worked with in other locations as well. So we're open and we're flexible.
If we can do a great job with them and connect with their target audience, then we can work together. And really with brands that are not like US based, like for instance, you're a great brand and you're in Barcelona, but you're looking to grow using a demographic market in the US that you're not internally connected with with your internal team. That's where we can step in and help you to launch activations with them or initiatives with them to connect with them and grow a new product or taking stuff to market, what have you.
That's the way we primarily see ourselves working with international brands.
Mitchell: How big are you? I mean, I'm talking to the two of you, but you've mentioned contractors and influencers. What's the team?
Reuben: Well, that's a good question. The core team are Sherri and I, and then we have a partner advisor who's like a silent partner advisor. And then we've also got a slew of great contractors, influencers, models, strategists, a lot of great people, copywriters and all of that that we work and we really build our team per project.
So once we understand what we're working with, with a project, we go through and we pull in the team who's best suited for that. So that way they get great work each time.
Mitchell: That's my favorite model. I mean, that's Solspace. We're little, but we're big.
It's the internet age. Why would you be anything else? Why would you be anything other than the exact size that your client needs at any given time?
That's where partners come in, good relationships.
Reuben: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Mitchell: Good job, you two. Sherri, Reuben. Thank you for both being guests. I really appreciate it.
Reuben: Thank you so much. This was a really great time. We appreciate being here.
[Music] You've been listening to the Solspace Podcast.